Looking for Attention, Baby Talk and Fakers in DID

Emily First Girl: ………..Camigwen …………Multiplicity

Looking for Attention, Baby Talk and Fakers in DID

October 30, 2008 at 3:16 pm · Filed under Comments, Goddess of Brilliance and Wonder, Personal Musings, Understanding DID, Vent-Rant and tagged: alters, DID, switching, Understanding DID

HF mentioned Fakes and Baby Talk in How does “I” become “We”? I also have a hard time with this. As someone with DID, I realize that makes me a pretty big target for flames.

Hold on while I put on my flame proof suit.

“Flames will be used to light the ritual fire and roast marshmallows.” – Echo

<disclaimer #1 of several> This post will piss some people off. It is a meandering diatribe on fakers and child alters from an opinionated engineer. There has been internal debate if this should be rewritten in a Kinder Gentler voice, but hey, this is life. Life has controversy, life has sarcasm, life has opinion, and almost nothing in life is benign enough to be accepted by all. Deal with it. Or move along.
</disclaimer>

Baby talk and fakers is a controversial topic HF brought up in her last post, How does “I” become “We”? and that we discussed in email. Lotsa folks disagree on this one – believers and non believers (Perhaps a religion, eh?). So I say up front…these are MY opinions. Probably uninformed ones as well. (And to complicate things, they are the opinions of the “alter” who is writing this post. Oh, the irony, the irony….)

(“Someone in here is Emily and she is being asked to Approve this Message.”) Heh heh.

Thesis statement for those requiring tirade-ial outlines

I firmly believe there are a boatload of people who fake DID/MPD.

Why? For attention. To stir up drama. For shits and giggles. To offset tedious teenage angst. To be acquitted of a crime. Whateeeeeeeeeeever.

Real vs faked DID – a characteristic?

Quite the opposite. We’ve written elsewhere about what multiples really look like: “obsessive secrecy, masked symptoms, terror of exposure … they invest huge amounts of energy in acting and appearing singleton.” The typical individual is not “florid” and does not flaunt it. We hide it.

Compare that to individuals on TV shows who switch for the camera. Those who post videos on YouTube.

As a general rule, I *cannot* switch on a whim. Sometimes I switch on a trigger with amnesia, sometimes there is internal begging for the self who is the great presenter to get her ass out of bed so we can get to work.

I am somewhat hamstrung by the fact that I do not have access to all the abilities that this body possesses.

I do not understand how people can “control” a switch for the camera and an audience. Why they would want to. (Right now, I seriously hope I can stick around because I need to get some work done and I am the most effective at doing a particular type of work.)

But hey – the whole faking thing is my opinion. But check it out – all this florid stereotyping by fakers makes real-life behaviors seem, well, ordinary. Unremarkable.

Unremarkable – “found in the ordinary course of events. Mundane.”

I *live* for anything that makes my experience simply “ordinary.” Can we get on with life now please okay thanks?

Plz k thx? (Hold on, I’ll get there.)

I want attention

HF shares she has seen people in online “who the minute the attention shifts from them, start talking baby talk…what seems to be a uniformly adopted ‘little’s speak.'”

And, “As far as I’m concerned, if somebody has genuinely regressed to the level of a 2 year old, then they won’t be posting on any forums, misspellings or not … I am firmly convinced those people [are] fakes.”

Then she offers a common example of what appears on many forums:

“i don fink dat bes nis wut juni sa nono i duz lov tiny an i don se hrz in lon lon daz i wis i cud se herz y tiny don com pla no mor huh mabe tiny don lik mez no mor o i bez sad”

– IamUs. (2006). “o dat bad wut juni sa,” [forum post], HealthyPlace, http://forums.healthyplace.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=65912&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 (accessed November 11, 2008)]

<That’s worse than LOLspeak. Rolls eyes. Icanhasalters?>

I do not have an alter I can ask to translate that for me. Would some grammatician please confirm that this is not representative of the developing speech patterns of a young child?

Why Little’s Speak?

Sooooo, who are these fakers? Who are we, those with and without DID, to classify fakers? Can we label the fakers based purely on what repels us internally?

No. Sigh.

Hard as that is for me to admit, my suspicion of individuals using Little’s Speak online is not a conclusive reason for me to label them fakers. Although I do believe in my gut that a majority of them are. However, I have no proof. I don’t have a need for proof because I’ll not force my reality on someone else. Just don’t force yours on me and we can peacefully coexist.

“So,” I hear you cry, “Who the hell are you to turn your back on those of us who allow our Littles to join their own forums? Especially you, someone formally diagnosed with DID?”

Well, you’re right.

All those Little Speaking out there may truly be child alters typing away at the keyboard, but I have a hell of a hard time believing it. Flame away. There is too much order to the interaction, conversational give-and-take, far beyond what a 2 year old can comprehend.

(Or PERHAPS are they posting with a co-conscious adult in the background to type and maintain “forum décor”? And if so, why are the misspellings left in? Is it the type of gatekeeping that happens inside me: “pass though” versus “editing for 1 consistent voice”? Or is Little’s Speak an affectation to make it completely clear that the author is a child because obvious intonation and voice cues aren’t available via written word? But let’s not nitpick, eh?)

And another query from the cynic – does everyone speak the same Little Speak? Same grammar, same words? Is there a dictionary? (oh, I know there is a flame in the making… So how about ya hold the flame and go find some evidence to share either way?)

Would be an interesting investigation; after all, LOLspeak has some clearly defined rules, unique as they are, that are well understood and accepted. I understand LOL a lot easier than Little Speak.

(Plz k thx?)

I think LOLspeak is kinda cute, or is it just the kitten (kitteh?)

more animals

(Extending neck further out on chopping block…) Some of the forum content and YouTube videos of/by individuals with DID make me sick. Surf YouTube yourself.

Why is my stomach in a twist? Because my friends and relatives who know my diagnosis may see these lovely representations and assume that these are 1) representative and 2) me. Gak. Irrational and uninformed as it is.

Maybe I am as uninformed about child alters and public Littles Speak, as I felt HF was uninformed about my experiences with DID. Could be. I’ll allow the possibility if all of you allow my opinions.

(Station break: There are some great videos – again, MY perspective: My favorite INSiDE short film. Also, Dissociative Identity Disorder, Dissociative Identity Disorder: It is very real.)

Tell us about yourself(ves)

“So, Emily (Kate), do you have any child alters?”

If you’ve read the About this Blog, you know there is no “roll call” of me/us. Many contributors in different shapes and forms. Most signed “Emily” to maintain a constant singular voice (and this is HER blog), but you know that Em is more about the pictures and visuals than the words. Cami writes most of this for real. With Em’s approval.

Aaaaannnnnyyyyywayyyyyyyyyyyy… (See? Inflection and intonation with only words IS possible)

(My best friend yesterday, on an email he got from this chick who wants more than he is willing to offer… he told me, “She wants a relaaaaationship. Someone that wants to beeeeee with her.”)

Anyway, I digest.

Child alters and more compelling communications

My tirade against Little’s Speak online is limited to that – Little’s Speak online and it’s possible relationship to individuals faking DID.

On the other hand, Emily strongly suggests that I offer both sides of the coin…more palatable (to me/us) methods of communication of very young child alters. Ones believable to me/us.

Art. Visual impressions. Wide eyes and suffusing wonder at stimulating scenes. These resonate and are accepted by my gut. They are very common in here. This blog got started when Emily started interacting more – but her words are often color and design as with this blog.

My reality … accept or not Believers and Skeptics.

There are two child alters in here. Neither talk baby talk. Both rarely talk aloud to others. As there is a good deal of co-consciousness here, and it is usually a conscious decision to lower that wall enough, around very select people, in order to let those thoughts be relayed directly instead of through part of me who tends to edit and control the “interface” to the rest of the world. Who makes sure we are consistent as much as possible. (Which is obviously not me. Sarcasm knows no bounds. Wry smile.)

Instead of words, these girls express through mental pictures and feelings. A sense of right and wrong (more specifically, of being wronged). With few words but a well-honed sense of trustworthiness based on many experiences of broken trust.

Or, artwork online

I see this many places on the internet – artwork that is clearly created by child alters. For example, the Littles Keepers Korner from Keepers Korner. SecretShadows has some great art – the second one I feel I could have drawn, as you can see from my comment.

These are powerful powerful images and much more believable communication methods for littles. IMHO! I have art in many forms – drawings, paintings, quiet poetry, photography. For now (and perhaps forever) that is much better inside.

Final Thoughts

As I do not experience baby talk, it may be inappropriate for me to comment about those who might. But even if I did, I know that I have such a strong sense of protection and a dire need to hide this, that the Little Speak would not be allowed out if at all possible.

And here is the ultimate irony –

As one with DID, I must admit that it is my perspective that most typing 2 y/o’s are fakers, even though this belief may not be unanimous inside me. But for ME, who CAN type and CAN research and CAN construct coherent and compelling sentences, I see the Little’s pages in discussion forums (not little’s pages on websites for art, etc.) and roll my eyes.

But who’s to say a little part of me doesn’t log in after hours and post comments on a blog of her own?

😉

[Ed note: But alas, this post DID generate flames which I removed, but explored in a follow-up post:Nasty Comments about my “Cemented Pearls of Pain”]

– ∞ –

66 Comments»

David Rochester wrote @ October 30, 2008 at 3:56 pm

I found this enormously entertaining, as well as informative. 🙂

My gut feeling is also that anyone who can “switch” on command, and much of the “baby talk” crap (sorry, that is the only word I have for it) is faked, and detrimental to those of us who really are struggling with having to live by committee.

Instead of words, these girls express through mental pictures and feelings

That’s my experience, too. My youngest alter is about two and a half, and he usually doesn’t speak, because he lacks sufficient lanugage to express complex concepts. Unlike most of my alters, however, he is recognizably me at a younger age, and so he has one of the things I had at that age, which is the ability to read; I somehow started reading before I was two, and had print language/concept association before I could spit it back out as speech. So sometimes he will send single printed words to me, or strings of words. But they’re not … that thing. It’s something very simple, like “want cat” or “play with train?” Something a 2 1/2 year old would actually express. The last thing he coherently said to me was “stay here” when I found a good internal babysitter for him.

I know he has more complex emotional issues that he would like to express, but they cannot be communicated in speech, so we lack a common vocabulary; now and then we’ll get an image or feeling, but it’s rare. The most frustrating thing for me about having an alter that young is that he can’t communicate in speech. And why? Because he’s really a child.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ October 30, 2008 at 4:05 pm

David

I’d just love to put your comment out there and say, “helloooooooooo, reality check folks, infant and toddler alters are not imbued with some special skill that give them the ability to behave beyond normal development.”

The only thing I don’t know, and have not researched, is stuff on regression. Apparently a singleton can regress to an earlier age – I know nothing of this, and don’t want to get started on it.

But….perhaps a not-to-completely-ridiculous idea is that an alter who started as a toddler but has grown and matured over time (as some of them do) then regresses back into a toddler but retains the learned ability to communicate?

I know, a stretch. And a mental mind fart at that.

Emily/K

davidrochester wrote @ October 30, 2008 at 5:55 pm

My comment is officially your property, and I give you permission to wield it mightily as may be required.

From what I understand of regression, it is usually a “real time” phenomenon. I think what gets me about the typing thing is that it makes no sense. It does make sense to me that someone could regress to an earlier age while literally speaking, or could have body experiences of regression that reflect themselves in visible body language. I’ve had that happen once or twice when trying to coax that young alter “out” (since I can’t talk to him ) and it was pretty freaky, and I imagine it would have looked odd to anyone who might have been watching me, though thankfully, nobody was.

I meant to add earlier, and didn’t, that I don’t have a problem with young alters who express themselves through a co-conscious adult in language that is simple, or more reflective of a child’s thought processes. But that is quite different from the attention-getting language, IMO. I’ve noticed on a couple of occasions when my ten-year old alter (who knows how to type, as I did when I was young) is out on my private blog, my sentences will become shorter, and sometimes will lapse into a kind of obsessive run-on continuity. But then again, it’s coming from someone who does in fact know how to type.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ October 30, 2008 at 6:43 pm

Good descriptions – I think I feel the same way. I generally have awareness from behind, and it almost feels like the adult at the playground. Let the child play until something unsafe or perhaps unapproved is about to happen, then step in. I remember the first time with Emily and my mom. I was very nervous and ready to clamp down, but it was actually a nice time. We bought beads of different color stones and made bracelets together. Good memory.

…and I did not know how to type 🙂

Jackie wrote @ October 30, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Well said Emily and David. I was just discussing this very subject this morning. Switching is complicated, but at will, with younger alters? I’m not convinced is do-able. My younger alters have IQ’s way below room temp. I live in the tropics so I suppose that could cause flames (sorry Emily, I couldn’t resist) at times and be considered the normal range (Stanford-Binet) which just reinforces what you both said…communication is close to non existent. Active participation in my current recovery/life would then be a joke.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ October 31, 2008 at 1:38 am

Jackie

Excellent! Welcome to the Thread of Sarcasm…”IQ below room temperature.” I am sorry to laugh, but it is a great expression.

Thanks for writing and add these great thoughts at any time!
Emily

Samantha wrote @ October 31, 2008 at 3:39 pm

I received a link to your blog on an alert at Google for DID.

Fakers and ‘Lil-speak’ is always a hot spot to step into without flame retardant swim wear, since it’s like having a dip in Lava flow. That said….

We have selves that have taught each other to read and write over the years. We’re not sure why some are able to ‘mature’ and others are stuck at young age levels. Our youngest self that writes is 4ish. He can manage 3 word statements, “got big tank.” On the other hand we’ve a 7ish self who has her own journal. http://rensplace.livejournal.com/ Her writing is syntax driven, she drops the ‘g’ out of thinkin because it’s how she speaks. She uses spell check but leaves out capitals and commas. I think the lack of capitals is an issue with feeling small. (Personally I think spell check is a wonderful gift to communication, since this brain has trouble spelling across the board.)

That said…. Are the ‘lilspeakers’ fakers? Probably some are not what I personally experience as being multiple. Are some attention seekers? Probably. Here’s what I always wonder… Are there multiples who are also attention seekers? Well probably so. I do think it’s hard to stomach attention seekers of any sort and they garner a feeling of FAKE.

As someone who agreed to be interviewed about our DID, with a past therapist, I have to say, I wasn’t able to switch at will. Also our therapist did not disrespect our personage by making us into some ‘Dog & Pony’ show by asking us to switch on stage. On the other hand at great mental pain our therapist can ask to speak to someone specific and we can front on command. BUT… I must qualify this ability. That kind of switching was trained into our system. Not every person with DID has had this experience. Still we have always been and still are very secretive about who knows we’re multiple. We don’t tell friends, most of our family doesn’t know and certainly not our sons. It’s not something we feel safe to share with the world. We don’t want to be the ‘freak.’

Those multiples who are out there switching and living out front as children have given many here the ‘icks.’ Especially those who have their partners acting as parents or aunties. Our spouse was horrified when she saw a husband playing ‘daddy.’ She knows we are ‘many’ and she’s aware there are child selves, but her relationship with us is based on over all respect NOT reparenting.

Fakers, they seem to profess being multiple with such conviction. The truth of our experience with being DID… we doubt our selves regularly. We’re never quite sure with such conviction about anything. When we’re on what someone here calls the D-train (actively dissociating) we’re all over the place. Belief of our own reality gets very visceral due to the huge gaps in linear time. Who knows what is actual. At those times that moment at/in front is all there is for some of us.

Sam

emilylonelygirl wrote @ October 31, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Hi Sam

I am glad you came over here to read – you have some great comments and experiences to share. I appreciate that!

I went over to Rens place and there is some nice stuff that really feels good. There is just such a recognizable difference (to me) that speaks to my gut (and a certain little girl in me). What a sweet child. Thank you for sharing that.

Fronting on command…never thought of that. In some cases I can push someone aside, or try very hard to keep someone in front. And there is a part of me who I can feel actively pushing ME aside at times. (Smile – the one who wrote this post!)

It is different for each part of me, but I can do the forced fronting in some cases…but not publicly – still way to private a person – still on and off denial and doubt for that!

One of the things that I didn’t expect to get from starting this blog is the connection to people who are a lot like me…very similar experiences and feelings. People who I just feel in my gut are going through the same thing in such a private and something agonizing way. Other people who share some very personal stories that would probably seem bizarre and made-up to the “normal” people. But how can you deny so many separate people with the same unique experiences in so much detail?

Having you, a complete stranger, add more to the feelings I have is really an amazing thing for me – I am not alone. Thank you very much for that.

Emily

secretshadows wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 12:32 am

I do have little ones inside that write. My very youngest ones do not. Most of my writers are “of age” to write and ONLY do so in protected safe places just as they would only “come out” in a trusted safe place or in response to a trigger. The youngest one that will communicate through text is 4 but she has help from a co personality that is 7/8.

One thing to keep in mind about the alter personalities is that their development is not parallel to that of another child at the same claimed age. It is similar, but not identical. Alters will generally seem like they are a certain age by evidence of some of their language, perception, and/or behavior thus appearing similar to a 4 year old child, per se. But they often are more mature than that in some areas which may include the ability to write and express through text, or it may include the occasional ability to make cognitive connections seemingly “beyond their years”.

This is quoted from Colin Ross’ book Dissociative Identity Disorder: Diagnosis, Clinical Features, and Treatment of Multiple Personality Disorder pg. 147:::

“Many child alters do not actually function at their alleged age level cognitively. They often understand long words, abstract concepts, and moral dilemmas in a way that would be rare for a normal child of that age. Others do seem to have a childish way of thinking. The cognitive function of alter personalities of different ages cries out for systematic study by developmental psychologists. I predict that there will be mixed findings along the lines I have just described. A scientific demonstration that child alters do not function cognitively at their alleged age would not invalidate DID. It would only prove that they are not real children.”

I do not discount DID as fake based on written expression by child alters. I think those of us with DID are all different, and we will each present in our own unique way. We each have unique alters with unique capabilities based on the needs of our system.

One other thing I would like to say is that as I have become more in tune with my own system and better able to use internal communication, my ability to control switching and it’s outward presentation have improved, but that improvement has been in control in that I can hold it back or allow it at times. This is not always the case, obviously, but yes there are times I can feel a certain alter coming forward, and I will be in session with my therapist and will consciously “step back” and allow it. There are also times where internally I am pushing it back, trying hard to not switch or not allow that alter to voice his/her thought.

OK, in agreement, yes I am weary of people who flaunt their DID symptoms, via YouTube videos and such. Lots of us here with our blogs are about sharing the reality of DID in it’s totality, but most of what I’ve seen IS NOT. Most is nothing but a (laying my head on the chopping block with you…….) a circus display degrading to all of us who live our lives having to hide the fact that we have DID. And WHY do we have to hide it??? Because of these vary displays. I believe if one is going to do DID justice at all in the public arena, one would most definitely NOT choose the most embarassing aspect of DID to post on the internet. AND!!! AND!!!! That would not be the one and only side of the disorder that they display. That is bullshit and a disgrace to us all.

My opinion.

Secret Shadows

*Really good post, by the way.

Echo wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 3:01 am

I just had to come on over here and see what exactly the content of the post was that prompted you to ask to quote me 🙂

I’ve been intrigued by this. I have let my littles out a few times to talk, in the hopes they could socialize with other purported littles on a support group, but overall it’s just…I do find it odd and weird and hard to follow and some times the littles’ protector kicks in and just says “NO” when the littles do type, and they’re 5-7, it’s mostly them dictating what they want to say and it flowing through; our co-consciousness isn’t absolute, but overall they don’t come out every any more since the advent of my step-father; it’s just easier that way and for the longest time we’d sort of collectively forgotten they were even there an uber-protection system.

For us we can’t exactly switch on queue but there are certain circumstances which will trigger and can be affected to trigger certain alters forward, mostly Max, who is just nosy as all get out and likes to be in on everything particularly if there’s chocolate involved. However even when others are forward there are lots of times where they can usually where enough of a mask that people don’t notice, only a few people like some very close friends and my husband can usually tell; alternately we have a very protracted who is out around certain people and who is not system.

Anyway, enough of my ramble. I need to find a way to subscribe. I had no idea there were so many DID topics/blogs and such actually out there, that’s what I get for not putting the right terms in google before now, I guess.

deannandme wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 5:27 am

I have a baby or toddler in me that says a few words aloud, only to me and only when I am by myself! There have been a few times when I was at work and triggered/stressed to the point where the baby would talk- sounds like I’m speaking in tongues, actually! It is profoundly embarrassing to me and mostly I am co-conscious with it so I try like hell to hold it back. I guess I am ever vigilant to not appear more than a singleton. Mostly I experience myself as only a singelton. Sometimes the baby/toddler says the same words over and over again, and I’ve been able to decipher what the words are. Mostly they are comments on what had happened to her way back when (voice from the past), but reduced to the words and speech of an under 2 year old. My “little” does not talk to anyone else, nor comment on anything other people say or do. She does occasionally hiss like a snake! You’ve seen babies do that, right? Mostly when they are super upset and feeling out of control.

It is very difficult to be taken seriously and respected as a person with a very challenging disorder when others who claim to also have it do things to exaggerate and exploit the disorder for their own need for attention or whatever. There are hams in every group, I’m sorry to say. The more they ham, the more I need to be a wallflower.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 11:43 am

Hi Deannandme – I end up “talking to myself” out loud quite often when I am alone, but as an adult having a conversation. My family is used to it, and a neat thing is my grandmother used to do the same thing so it is “genetic” 🙂 In the car I used to get more embarrassed at a stop light if I realized it and the driver next to me was looking at me. Then I trained myself to nod with the “music” when I talked. Now it is even easier – I am just talking on my “hands free cell phone headset” – they are invisible if they are in the other ear! Technology has helped me!

Being taken seriously… I sometimes act “silly” and I blame it just on that…”I am feeling silly – sorry!”

I am also a practical joker and I can REALLY get into that and make people laugh…all that comes from youngers wanting to play!

Very good points. Thanks.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 11:51 am

SecretShadows

I have thought about and paid attention to what a lot of you said about single or a few words from a child. I do get that sometimes with the images – like a “title” or descriptor. “park” “cat” “soft cat” (Internal smile as I write soft cat – I have huge smile on my face now!)

SEEEE how important it is to listen and acknowledge all parts of yourself! And in a way, another part of me just contributed to that post. Good good stuff!

A great point you made – Alters will generally seem like they are a certain age by evidence of some of their language, perception, and/or behavior.

Yeah, that makes sense, along with Ross’s comment (boy that systematic study would be AWESOME to see!). I haven’t thought about ages other than to try and decipher when a split might have occurred. I assumed that was the selve’s age (didn’t really give it much more thought than that). But, you could be right. My smallest little pure gem (”soft cat”) I believe to be chronologically about 3, and many of the feelings are about that. But there are other times that the perception and insight from that part are beyond the years…she is my sense of trust – one of the absolute trump cards here on first impressions. That, I would think, is beyond a 3 year old…but I can also see that that sense of NEEDING to be able to judge someone as good or bad at the time abuse STARTS is something a 3 year old would at least sense the need for.

Thanks for the good talking point – I hadn’t considered that. So, two reasons for the ages and hehaviours of alters to be somewhat incongruous – there is help from an older alter, like in your case. Or the idea that alters do not age as regular kids do.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 11:59 am

Hi Echo!

I am glad you stopped by to see why I had an immediate use for your totally awesome quote about using flames to roast marshmallows. I will be using that for every vent-rant from now on!

Yes, I feel the similar feeling that an older self will be monitoring…not necessarily a protector (honestly, I have not gone through and categorized part of me as the different types of alters. Something revolts at that – more labels. I am what I am collectively – not as insult to anyone who does! This is with any activity – will someone see, will I get hurt, how “appropriate” is this behavior, can I moderate the behavior so it is still allowed but more a singleton “mood.”

And someone wants to fake all of this. Go ahead…let’s have a contest. Let’s put all these fakers in a room with a bunch of us with DID, and let’s see how quickly they are debunked. (But that would be rude…if we could just get them to 1) go away, or 2) fake the symptoms correctly.)

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Echo – regarding subscribing – I use Google Reader to subscribe to my favorite blogs – makes it easer to see when new posts come out. There are other similar programs. To subscribe, the blog often has some icons or words along the lines of a “feed”. Click on it and you’ll get instructions to select a feed program. On my site, it is in the second column (next to this one) near the bottom, and it is called “entries RSS” and “comments RSS” That will alert you when new entries are posted, and new comments if you want both.

Tigerweave wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 1:33 pm

rofl! lets just get all the fakers to fake DID *properly*! problem solved… we genuine DID-mob get the benefit of more people understanding about DID because the attention-seeking fakers are doing the one thing everyone I know with DID are frightened of doing – drawing attention to it. And the fakers get the attention they crave.

Simple how the problems of the world are solved… *giggles*

I honestly can’t have an opinion about chatrooms of lilspeak or whatever it is called. (Bad lolspeak?) because I haven’t hung out where it gathers.

But I do have an alter that split off when I was 2. However she fronted a lot in my early years, swapping with the original personality, (Back when I was just a split personality, rather than multiple 😉 so she presents around 5 yrs old. She can and does speak oddly, especially when tired or distressed, kinda like a 5 yr old child would when, er, tired or distressed.

But the true power of this wasn’t revealed until a recent flashback of a moment where my boyfriend of the time was trying to ask me/Verdigris what had happened while I was with the abuser that caused me to be near hysterical. He was trying also to calm me down. There was no way Verdigris could calm down, or tell, because of the threats of death if she told.
So I switched to the little one, Indigo Elf, who could be calm because it hadn’t happened to her. And she told what happened in her odd childish-talk that is close to nonsense, but if you hear it enough you learn to follow it.

She literally hadn’t spoken a word about what had just happened, but had communicated clearly anyway. My boyfriend, used to her speech style understood. She, in her childlike approach had found a way around the “rules” of not talking about the abuse.

I keep coming back to the understanding that each alter is there and behaves in the way they do for a good reason.

As for switching deliberately, I found that came with greater integration, and it wasn’t always reliable. Not least because there was a big resistance to it because of the headaches it brought on. (Another way to separate the fakers from real? Which ones get offline and take heavyduty painkillers and go lie in a darkened room for a day or so after a session online???)

I hated the most when one alter got stuck in a situation inappropriate for them or that they couldn’t handle. That is why poor little Indigo Elf can drive. She used to get stuck in front when I was distressed and yet had to drive so I/she had to learn how to drive. She was very good at it but found such “big people” stuff very stressful.

Back on fakers, I really have got the feeling a lot of so-called multiples (and quite possibly their therapists?) are simply mistaking having a number of different ego states for true DID. I see this not only in the way they talk about their relationships with their other personalities, but also the arguments against DID.

The arguments against seem really to consist of “Everyone has ego-states, and that is what these supposed DID people have. They are mistaking their own ego-states for being different people.” And from the way they talk they obviously have no understanding ego-states are very different to DID, so therefore it is all ego-states, isn’t it?

I can see how easily it would cut the other way – someone who has distinct ego-states thinking what they have is DID… because they have no concept there is a big difference between real DID and ego-states, so therefore what they have is DID, right?

Well, it made sense to me… :-D.

secretshadows wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 1:34 pm

There are often others in the system that “take care” of the littles, watch after them, help them, and guide them. I think that is quite common as I hear about it often. There older kids and teens in my system tend to look after the younger ones in that same way for me. There teens sometimes will control the littles’ ability to talk/write either allowing it or stifling it. Oddly enough, the adults in the system don’t interact with the littles enough, although I do.

Another thing I thought of this morning in reference to “fakers” and others is that are what they call iotragenic cases of DID. That is when the DID is more therapy induced. I would like to think that there aren’t over zealous therapists out there diagnosing and “creating” DID in people that otherwise before did not have it, but I do know this does occur. It is awful in that it discredits the good therapists out there. I, myself, have come in contact with such a therapist within the past couple of years via the internet and an online support group. She is very into DID and Ritual Abuse, and often tried to “read into” things as I said as being indicative of me having been through Ritual Abuse. I had to repeatedly explain to her that I had no history of such. She is the kind of therapist that would react to that as if I was possibly in denial and the dissociative walls are just so thick I am not aware of it. I was like, “No. I have not been Ritualistically Abused.” I know this for a fact. But you know there are people out there (God love ’em) that are not as secure in themselves and could be swayed into believing they have anything. It’s sort of along the lines of the false memory thing. This is abuse in itself, because these people are truly traumatized by what these therapists instill in them.

Please know I am not a huge False Memory supporter, but I have seen with at least one therapist that this is definitely possible and yes, therapists can create DID and/or embelish it in a client and that is where these iotrogenic cases come from.

Colin Ross talks about ioptragenic cases of DID in his book, and to be assured they are no less real than those of us who aquired DID independently and genuinely from our own experience. However, it may be that some of these people we question as fakers are actually of the iotragenic type, and they have no idea ow they came to be DID.

I feel like I’m having a hard time expressing myself well here, so I may come back and clarify a few points later. I hope I’m making sense.

Secret Shadows

Samantha wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Ross also makes it clear that therapists who cause iotragenic DID have done so within a IP setting. That it takes hours and hours of isolation with the patient. Much like brainwashing. The big truth is the patient isn’t faking, they’ve been mentally abused/traumatized into DID.

Therapist that push clients to believe something that wasn’t there are usually ill trained to start with and have no peer input. A good therapist for DID is one that keeps their ideas about abuse to themself till the client brings it up. Anything forced out is a bad idea, it just causes all kinds of other chaos.

I’m a firm believer that the FMSF is a bunch of doctors and abusers covering their own arse. But then that’s totally opinion! LOL

Sam

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Hi Tigerweave – Poor Indigo Elf – it’s really difficult for a child to have to take on big girl responsibilities so early. Regular children have to do that sometimes too, and that is just terrible. Maybe of the non-DID’ers where to take their anger at an 8 year old child who is forced to care for siblings, get food, cook, clean, beg while not in school while mom/dad get high on drugs all the time … and place that same outrage on situations that caused the same effects on an internal child…it could be clearer how the internal landscape can be so dysfunctional at times. (Good thing Indigo Elf likes ice cream – that solves many of life’s smaller problems :-))

As to the ego state thing…I recently interviewed 2 new therapists and both went through that idea (ego states) as they tried to ascertain the degree of my separation. (9 as opposed to 6 – heh heh) One saw the DID right away, the other was more resistant. My wall went right up because I felt she was imprinting her opinion on my reality. Clearly I know which therapist I will be seeing. (Hey – I like that quote “Don’t imprint your opinion on my reality” Kinda like, my dogma ate your karma.)

On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if parts I have seen as selves are getting closer to integration…does that mean that they are becoming more like ego-states? Or just integrated? I hadn’t thought of that. (Boggles my minds.)

Clearly, this thread is generating topics for new posts!

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 2:21 pm

SecretShadows
Good point about the iatrogenic. I suspect my feelings are common – that I doubt this often…that someone my brain is making it all up. My first therapist in NO WAY tried to force any ideas on me, but she did say that body memories tend to indicate something did happen for real.

And for those less secure in themselves, yes, they can be swayed and that is sad, especially if they know something is wrong with their lives. And for those who would welcome a DX that would cause others to feel sorry for them. (Not saying that happens all the time!)

You expressed yourself clearly enough for me. But more comments are welcome!

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 2:31 pm

My thoughts (at the time) about Iatrogenic DID and False Memory “Syndrome”.

From what I read, the FMSF started out with some noble goals before it slid off into sickeningness (if that is a word).

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 2:33 pm

I THREAD I THOUGHT WAS GOING TO CAUSE SOME REAL FLAMING IS ONE OF THE BEST DISCUSSIONS YET!

Thank you all!

David Rochester wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 3:57 pm

… and the success of this thread is, perhaps, a good reminder to all of us that sometimes, being open and honest does really pay off … and there are still good reasons to trust and take risks sometimes. I for one could use this reminder daily. OK, hourly.

Echo wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Emily,

I have a feed reader through my email program, at the time I couldn’t find your subscribe URL but I found it shortly after I commented, and do have updates coming in to my inbox now 🙂

I tend to ascribe certain monikers to people, not everyone, because for me I find that most people/alters/whatever don’t have one specific function; but in the case of Debbi she basically is the protector of the littles, and if I said “Debbi” there’s no way for anyone else to know who that is and what that means hence resorting to labels. I tend to go for “what’s simpler” some times…but then there’s aspects like Max who defy definition…so, um…yeah LOL.

But anyway, I look forward to reading/catching up with other posts on your block. You have a lot of thorough and well-written information, which is awesome. My own ramblings do tend to be more journalistic.

I can’t get over the faking thing…why?? I think that’s one of those “what ticks me off about TV” things because so often the Multiple winds up being a fraud, and it’s HOW? WHY? A friend told me well if you ever do snap and kill your hubbie or something you have the perfect way to get off and I’m going WHY? I’d still have killed him I still would deserve to be punished…and SHOULD be punished. But anyway…I digress (I do that a lot).

I remember during one of my low points telling hubbie I was probably just completely nuts and totally wrong and delusional about the whole thing and both he and my therapist said that no one could fake something so consistently for so long, which makes me feel somewhat better; but then I don’t see things from the outside, I’m not aware of people’s different tics or habits, or expressions and things, so when hubbie or someone is able to tell who is out when whoever it is thinks they’re “masking” pretty well it can be a bit disconcerting.

I should try and let Jay get back to NaNo work though, or get some food. I think I need to subscribe to your comments too (which would be the first blog I’ve ever done that for) because everyone writing here has such fascinating points.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Hi Echo – funny – I just subscribed to my comments as well, so I could make sure I didn’t miss any!!!

About the TV shows – fraud, snap-kill-spouse..etc. Well, if they were to make a show about someone with DID who is as secretive about it as we are, wouldn’t it just be a show about normal people who have some quirks? 🙂

secretshadows wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 7:43 pm

Sam,

I absolutely agree.

Secret Shadows

secretshadows wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 7:57 pm

I was afraid of DID at first. I wrote an article on my blog about what the diagnosis process was like for me. It’s scary. It’s not something I would say, “Hmmm…….let’s see. I think I’ll have that.” Gosh, no, and it was years in the making….AND I MEAN YEARS…..try 15+ years in the making before I could really accept it. Still there are days I ask my therapist, “Are you sure I have DID. Are you sure I’m just not delusional in some way? Or I have some sicko weird mind.” She says, “It’s normal to doubt. And yes, I’m sure. You have DID.”

I have had multiple therapists pick up on the dissociation in my life. My early therapist didn’t quite label it DID, but that was 17+ years ago. She says now in retrospoect she knows it was DID, and she thought so then, but erred on the side of caution with diagnosis. The therapists I’ve seen in the past year have picked up on it rather quickly.

My poor sister…..she has seen multiple therapists and psychiatrists. She’s kind of funny because she says things like, “All I want is a medication to help me stay in my body.” I only say it’s funny because don’t we all??? But poor thing recently went to 3 different therapists and each suggested DID and she just couldn’t hear it and each time she left…she quit seeing that therapist.

I only share this because those of us that have it……at first…we really don’t want it. Do I WANT it now??? That’s a hard question. My answer is that I wouldn’t change it because I have learned to honor it. It helped me survive. It allowed to to keep intact my capacity for love and happiness. It’s not an easy way of life. And it’s acruel sort of irony that we first have the secret of abuse, now we have another secret…the secret that we have DID. I just really wish the world really understood DID better, so that if I said, “I have DID.” The word “CRAZY Sybil-like person” wouldn’t flash through their minds.

Is this a bit off topic???
Sorry…..

Yes, you have a good post going, here. I come frequently to see the update of comments.

Awesome job, Emily!

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 8:49 pm

SecretShadows

Good comment – so what off topic…I was reading another blog (can’ remember which one!!!) where someone was talking about being diagnosed, and I thought that might be a good topic – when you were diagnosed and what you thought about the process…did you suspect ahead of time, etc.

I will try and do that soon, and I’d like you to put your experiences over there, too.

Thanks for the support!

Emily

Samantha wrote @ November 1, 2008 at 9:11 pm

Emily

We shopped a lot for a new talk-doc, since the one we had was in Jersey, we live in Florida. Yeah it was a schlep! Anyway we final found one willing to accept the existance of SRA and to enter into a treatment commitment. BUT she turned out to be of the school that a therapist could just ‘discourage’ multiplicity away. BOY did that not work for her!

The beginning of the end was when she told Ren (6yrs at time) that she was, “acting and thinking like a child.” Ren looked her straight in the face and forcefully said, “that’s cause I’m only 6!”

It was like a light went on for her. It took the talk-doc another 6 months before she totally grocked the idea, but there’s no turning back for her now, she’s a believer. Right now she’s trying to get our first fronter to believe she’s part of a multiple system, talk about denial, it’s truly amazing. R has walked into therapy and told our talk-doc it’s all childish lies, there are no ‘others’ or abuse. The Doc held her own, never backed down, still hasn’t.

Mind you we told this talk-doc right up front we were DID, we’d had the DX for decades and we’re VERY separate. We all have had very clear lives in the body, integration isn’t wanted. On the other hand communication and fair play is the goal.

It would have been better to get a talk-doc with experience here in town, but our Jersey-doc is still available and she’s considered an expert in the field. So we always have her to fall back to if needed and she does consults. Taking a chance on getting a Florida-doc to believe was worth it, because she’d work with SRA and that was the most important need at the time. When looking no other therapist wanted to take on that can of worms.

SecretSadow: It’s true about wonder if you’re delusional. I mean it who doesn’t wonder about this who thing when you’re out there still dissociating and that alone will make you second guess yourself!

BTW I think this tread is working well.
I’ve been on a DID-list that used to flame everything, it was kinda the point, it got old.

Sam

Nasty Comments about my “Cemented Pearls of Pain” « Emily First Girl: ………….DID ……….Multiplicity wrote @ November 12, 2008 at 5:24 pm

[…] is referring to my post called Looking for Attention, Baby Talk and Fakers in DID. And she’s right. Well, not about the “piece of sh#t” part, IMHO, but the […]

castorgirl wrote @ November 14, 2008 at 11:42 pm

Really interesting posting and comments…
First to tell you where I come from so you can see some of the bias’ that I bring to this comment. I currently have a diagnosis of DID. I don’t want the diagnosis and it is not widely accepted in the country that I live. I have participated in online support groups where the environment is unhealthy – as an understatement. The “support” took more the form of a competition to see who had the worst abuse and most alters. At certain times you could almost see the different participants within the forum finding ways to make their history worse or an alter more “interesting”. This is where I’ve seen the most obvious cases of DID faking or just general worsening of someone’s mental health. We decided to do the only healthy thing and bug on outta there!

We collectively have a YouTube account where a couple of parts have put up clips. We’ve never put up anything other than generalised accounts of our history and our struggles with some of symptoms caused by our history. The closest we’ve come to putting anything personally identifying is in one, a part talks in her voice – which is distinct enough that most people wouldn’t attribute it to us at work. There is attention seeking on YouTube. There is also lots of rubbish clips about all sorts of other things. Collectively we don’t have the strength to question peoples rationale and beliefs when they make wrong assumptions in their clips. We just hope they’re getting the help they need.

If someone is faking DID, then it indicates that they have some pretty big problems happening. In my experience, DID is not something that I would wish on anyone, so why someone would want it is beyond me.

Purely from our experience, what we find worse is the lack of respect and suspicion that we have recieved from the mental health professionals about the diagnosis. We’ve been told that we couldn’t be DID as we’re – too high functioning, have a job, was married etc. I think we’re meant to be a blubbering mess in the corner before we will be accepted by some of the professionals – they don’t get that the fundamental drive behind the dissociation is the need to hide and be as “usual” as possible.

Interesting point about the ability of the child parts. We have an 8 year old who emotionally acts like an 8 year old, and this is how old she describes herself as being. However, she also has a cognitive skills in the sciences at an adult level. She enjoyed science at school, came forward for the lessons and kept on doing science through to university. She describes computers as coming along when she needed them – yes, the universe does revolve around her. She has no concept of a continuum of time and ageing, but can do honours level university biology.

This example was not to get attention, but to rather show how DID can be different for everyone. How the simple fact of an 8 year old part loving biology meant that she kept developing in that area – and as biology is a science with no emotion needed, her emotional growth didn’t develop.

Take care…

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 15, 2008 at 7:41 am

Hi Castorgirl

No, your example is certainly not attention-seeking. Your comment was rational and well-reasoned with personal experiences – exactly the type of stuff we all like to exchange around here. Your discussion is very good. – I am glad you commented here. You say “bias” like it is a bad thing….nope. Opinions based in experience that don’t align with other’s opinions and is not an attempt to trash others is not bias.

I haven’t been on forums a lot so I wasn’t aware of the “escalation of symptom severity” you mention, but it makes perfect sense. Yup. Kinda like HF said when attention moved away from someone, but to a larger degree. That’s not just DID, that’s a lot of children and adults today – playground time, attention at school, assignments at work. Expected for kids; sad for adults. And how exactly would you consider it for people who are kids and adults? (That was a rhetorical question all you crazy thinkers, but ponder away if you will!)

YouTube. I was/am not trying to slam YouTube…it’s just that it is a very easy medium for attention-seeking behavior and it is much harder IMO to separate fact from fiction. I am glad you have put stuff up that is educational in a way…to help people understand and to help you reach out. But, of course, we all know there is a big difference between a good mystery novel and a political mudslinging rag. You don’t sound like the gutter-trolling type.

We’ve been told that we couldn’t be DID as we’re – too high functioning, have a job, was married etc.

This is the final straw. I have such a knot in my stomach how many times I have read this. And since I have experienced it myself, it just slams home. I think a post on this will be forthcoming. Thanks for being the final stick to poke me on this insane and insulting issue.

I love your example of your little science goddess. I have some of that age-but-ageless experience as well and I think it is common. What I think is very cool about all that is we can see internal desires we have that have not been quashed by outside factors. With singletons I might imagine, a love of something like computers might be considered a hobby and then pushed aside with things get too busy. But if you have a part in there banging around wanting to do what she loves, it is harder to let it be relegated to the “I used to do” category.

And that is another post in and of itself.

Thanks for the great pondering this morning over my strong coffee

Cami/Emily

Shasta wrote @ November 16, 2008 at 10:49 am

Samantha, your remarks about iatrogenic DID are very thought provoking. What you said about “denial” is particularly troubling. My father fancied himself something of a psychologist though he really knew little about it. He was, however, a consummate manipulator knew instinctively how to use certain aspects of psychology (Freud and Perls) to essentially brainwash people – adults and children too. He would tell us what we subconsciously thought and if we disagreed it was because we were in denial. “Denial” was a kind of lock on the gate that kept us in his system. I have seen psychs and people on the web do the same thing, Then it gets into your own head. My question and this is for you or anyone else is about exactly HOW people get caught into the iatrodenic trap. Is it because therapists give names to the persons pain? IDo their remarks induce emotions where none existed? Can they become conditioned to react in certain ways by operant conditioning when given certain cues by therapists or groups? How would a person know if they really had a dissociational disorder or if they really were in denial? I am talking particularly about instances of DDNOS when there is no amnesia (its kind of hard to argue with that) or when certain alters might be less differentiated. I have had this feeling, that people here think that my interest is purely academic. Maybe it is paranoia, Whatever the case let me assure you that what academic interest I DO have emanates from my attempts to understand certain inexplicable emotional experiences I have had over the last 9 years.

emilylonelygirl wrote @ November 17, 2008 at 8:06 am

Samantha

Ren – yes – just love that! And, as so many people relay, it is often the front person in denial…me included for years…..

And the therapist I left…she did a great job for what she knew, but everything took a turn when one day she assured me that I didn’t have DID, and spontaneously out of me from somewhere. “Then why do they all have names?”

That shut her up! (It was also a good stepping stone for my own acceptance.)

Wow – good luck really settling into a doc in Fl.

And thanks for your feedback on the blog and folks here – it is just amazing and wonderful for me to find these folks – I feel accepted here online in ways I don’t in the Real World.

Cami/Emily

Cat wrote @ November 25, 2008 at 10:03 pm

THIS is exactly why, when I had my interview on TV with Mike & Juliet (I can get you the link if you want…) last October, I made sure to tell them that I was there to represent the “normalcy” of MPD. I didn’t want the flashy misrepresentations that so many TV shows seem to thrive on.

I was there to show everyone that MPD/DID isn’t some crazy thing and that I could carry on life in a somewhat normal manner (even if I had my issues in the past and might have more in the future) without reaching out to integrate.

I feel and have always felt that my mind created this lovely “disorder” as a way for me to survive and the only way to truly appreciate that is to learn to survive with it and all the struggles that come along due to it.

I might be talking in circles here, but, the YouTube videos and incessant arguments about fakers use to really get to me. Then, one day, I realized that pretty much all the “unexplained” and “unique” things that we as humans do not understand, get made fun of…

Satire is way of saying, “I do not get this, or understand it, so I will laugh” and with that I have been able to see those videos in a different light and not be so scared that it will reflect who I am.

I am very good at telling those around me about the realities of DID and that’s my only goal, really, to have those close to me understand. The masses shouldn’t matter too much (although I do GET that it’s important for you to not have more struggles than you already have in life, don’t stress too much over inaccurate information) and since you’ve overcome so much, we all have, add this to your list.

Just a suggestion…or two…or three. My brain is going too fast for me to truly say what I want so I’ll leave it at that for now and hope that someone can dissect it all. 🙂

Living with Multiple Personalities » Blog Archive » DID is only for attention? wrote @ November 26, 2008 at 12:05 am

[…] Here is a post that caught my eye and had me commenting. A great look at all the viral videos about DID and “baby talk”, “fakers”, etc. I can’t tell you if someone online is truly a part of the DID community or if they deserve to talk about it to others. I can’t be the judge of that but I can say that even those that fake can bring a sense of knowledge to those with DID and those without… […]

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ November 26, 2008 at 7:51 am

Hi Cat – ya, I am interested in the link.

You are not talking circles – you have the right of my mind, and the YouTube stuff has bothered me from the start. Gets to me as you said. But you are also right in that we have to be concerned with those closest to us rather than the masses. (Altho – I have an upcoming post on that I’d love your input on based on your experiences.)

Satire vs being made fun of.

Satire….can really hurt because the idea is not just to make fun of, but to ridicule some aspect of a person that is not ideal in some way. Being mean. In the pure, traditional sense, satire has no humor – it is meant to be biting. Much more extreme than being made fun of. Look to political satire – the biting kind; political cartoons that make us Americans all out to be mindless sheep more interested in the next episode of “Dancing with the Stars” than the economy (digression – I was in a waiting room a month ago and the screen was full of the financial disaster, retirement funds tanking, etc., and the little moving ribbon across the bottom had Up To Date Information on some dancer who had hurt himself on the show. The juxtaposition made me want to vomit.)

Anyway, I like dark humor much better – it is a kinder way of bringing up a hard subject – much easier way to discuss DID. Jokes, etc. Bringing up some of the stereotypes and then mocking them. Personally, I LOVE dark humor… it is a tag on this site if you want to follow it.

Here is some DID dark humor here. Some of my favorite jokes.

Vague wrote @ November 27, 2008 at 12:20 am

just thought i’d share whats happened inside as i read this post and (most of) the comments…

some big mean parts are saying to the littles, see, you aren’t real, so you have to shut up….

the littles are sad cuz they feel like they really are just figments and should just go away…

and others are just confused. because, yes, sometimes i’m sitting here and a little is typing and one of us wants to correct her spelling and she says, no i can do it myself, and then struggles to find the right letters…. other times we are somehow transcribing what’s being said… sometimes we *see* the word the way the little would spell and there is a battle to be authentic and honoring to the little and type it *their* way, or to ‘keep up appearances’ and look like we ‘got our sh*t together’ and stuff them away as usual – more communication to them that they should just shut up and hide – it is so easy for us to shut them down and basically just continue the abuse and invalidation ourselves… the littles need to be heard, not invalidated….. our perpetrators taught us to never show feeling, never show emotion, never show weakness…. part of our healing is saying, ‘yes, dammit, we can feel, we can show emotion, and we can be weak!’ …. hear me roar, lol.

and yes, we do this publically, yet anonymously. its our experience, our reality, and it can not be ‘hid’ because *maybe* someone will take it the wrong way and see DID in a somehow wrong light…. that’s their issue.

… anyhoo, just a few thoughts from us, for what it’s worth. *shrug*

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ November 27, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Vague

You describe exactly what happens in me many times. A little typing and NOT wanting help, and another trying to transcribe, and another injecting the *right* word but the one typing doesn’t WANT that word. It can be quite confusing, but I am getting better and recognizing where the comments are coming from, and trying to honor the one who is really *owning* a particular activity. But we don’t do the little speak at all because that isn’t here.

And you have the right of it – invalidation and not acknowledging the littles – that is exactly how this blog got started – Emily found her voice after being silenced for so long, and I/Cami was embarrassed that she started this blog. But, I realize now it was what had to happen for HER to be validated. And she is a LOT more and now I know to listen for her. It has helped us tremendously. So, perhaps she had to start it to get ME to hear her.

I have occasionally logged into a site just to leave a comment, but more when someone is asking a legitimate and non-idiotic question. I use a throwaway username and email for those.

Do what you need to do online…do what is right for yourself and your therapy. Thank you for your thoughts – I never want to trash anyone’s own reality, and sometimes my thoughts are controversial and uninformed. I am happy to eat my words!

My best
Camigwen

mo wrote @ November 27, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Ill be honest, it scares the bejesus out of me when people talk about “their littles” and honouring them etc…dont even want to remotely go there. Then again I wonder about the image of the girl in my that can jump high kinda fly, I have broken vertabrae, ankle, cracked rib(no memory of how) and see here is where the humour comes in..I think what if it was her doing her thing..can you imagine it though..me as a grown woman trying to leap tall buildings… jes maybe thats why my neighbours give me those weird looks 🙂 oN a serious note though, that thought is fleeting comes with the usual response of dont be so stupid, she is not real. But I do fearfully wonder.

mo wrote @ November 27, 2008 at 2:05 pm

oh god just remembered this…my next door neighbour is such a complainer, always complaining if my dogs bark which they do only to come in. Any I am on a first name basis with bylaw officer (thinking of inviting him to xmas dinner 🙂 ), he is on my side and I have to keep record of when they go out etc. Anyway on this night, we had just gotten in for my sons soccer, I was tired, let the dogs out, ran to the bathroom and in that time they barked, seconds later neighbour at the door complaining, thats the last thing I remember…my kids however who were outside with friends told me I flipped, apparently I called him fat, ugly and some other childish names and rants, all the kids thought it was hilarous, I was so embarassed when my kids told me, and had to tell them and their friends later that was an example of what NOT to do. To be honest though the thought of me standing there acting like a kid calling him names is kinda funny I think 🙂

Vague wrote @ November 27, 2008 at 9:25 pm

mo – lol, i’ve lost it on people, too, but not so funny! (i wish)… and i remember, too….

…someone came out and screamed and swore at a good friend (a reaction to our boundaries being invaded) … and i was inside helplessly watching…. we are still repairing our friendship. 😦

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ November 28, 2008 at 7:20 pm

Okay, you got close enough to something about me that I will share. Maybe because it might be useful to you. Or, it could be crap. YMMV.

Honoring the littles. I was aware of my two, but not communicating a year ago. Someone very close to me told me to accept the child. To talk to that child and tell her that it wasn’t her fault. I listened to him, but didn’t feel it. He hammered me – accept that girl – that girl did NOTHING wrong – it is not your fault. Protect that girl.

Well, I tried to look for that girl for months. Finally I found her in a rush. It was a shock to me!

Honoring them….I think that is more just giving them the space to open up. Not to reject them. To allow it to happen.

Just my opinion….but it took a very good friend who has little idea with DID is to hammer me about listening to a part of me that spoke to him before she over spoke to me.

Camigwen

mo wrote @ November 28, 2008 at 8:14 pm

See |I have never heard, but have had the image in my head for years and years. She is about 4/5 I think, kinda like a mini the minx (comic charactar from childhood), and every time I see her she is either jumping to the top of a wardrope (free standing closet ???) jumping off high walls or up to high walls etc, my T asked me did I have a sense of what she was feeling etc..I have no idea, just the image. I always thought she was an imaginery friend from childhood. I have had two other images in my head of children, not so cool, very fleeting havent seen them for a long time. I need proof that those images are something real, that they mean something, not sure if that makes sense or not, it must be the stupid girl kicking in here. I think my T is holding back, she keeps giving excuses re the test and how she has not had the time to score it yet, but then she is talking about honouring the different parts of me and trusting, working in managable bits etc. i suspect (my intstinct) she is trying to prepare me, either that or Im paranoid and /or a hyperchonriac. Then I think what the hell, bring it on, I have had to deal with worse things than this 🙂

castorgirl wrote @ November 28, 2008 at 9:40 pm

Sorry to jump into the conversation again, but we once had a therapist who said a whole lot of rubbish except for one thing –

There is a huge difference between attention seeking and seeking attention

She explained that there is a difference between the attention seeking of “look at me” that Emily first alluded to in this post; and the totally normal and validating experience of seeking normal attention to help with a problem or feel validated. I wonder if this is where the tension comes between not wanting to appear babyish, and needing those young parts to have a voice. Speaking only from our perspective we have little tolerance for those that attention seek; however, we will spend the day with someone who is going through a rough time and needs some healthy attention and care.

Yes, our young parts need to have a voice and to be validated. But I consider this totally different to the attention seeking behaviour that I’ve seen on online forums and support groups.

mo if its any consolation we once switched to a rather aggressive part who totally cursed out the ex-husband in front of a nurse who was observing us. Unfortunately I have no recollection of it. Would’ve love to have been there for it.

Take care
castorgirl

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ November 29, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Castorgirl – Good point! I am glad you clarified that because Emily has had tremendous trouble throughout life being able to ask for that help – to be”seen.” I suppose that is the same as seeking attention but in a healthy way.

Castorgirl and Mo – I have done the same as both of you. A couple times I have ripped someone’s face off and had no idea (had to be told) and a couple times saw it happen behind my eyes and was somewhat aware of what was happening, and couldn’t do anything about it. This last one was with my best friend and it still hurts – it is in the background and it comes up every now and then. I would give anything to be able to take back that evening. My best friend will always keep that in his mind about me and it tears me up.

So, you are not alone, but not exactly a good club to belong to.

Camigwen

mo wrote @ November 29, 2008 at 5:42 pm

Im ok with the neighbour thing, not a nice person at all wished I had the nerve to do that consciously 🙂 I suspected even before that night he was a trigger for me, sleazy, he looks at me as if I am the scum of the earth (at least thats from my perspective) anyway my house is for sale now apparently Im the third one to sell after two years living next to them. The market is slow here in Canada but it is not like it is in the States. To my knowledge that is the only time I have done something like that…still wondering about leaping tall buildings though 🙂 My kids have not mentioned anything, so if I am it must be when they are with their Dad, my ex. Which actually reminds me, I have freaked on him a few times…ok more than a few, when we were together though…so he says, but he cant be trusted 🙂 🙂

beauty wrote @ December 17, 2008 at 9:23 am

I’ve long suspected the authenticity of the Little Speak of which you write–this is the first time I’ve come across a post courageous enough to say what a lot of us have thought for so long: that there’s something a bit conniving going on.

I joined a DID forum one time and there was this big clique which tended to shut everyone else out by communicating exclusively in Little Speak. It made no sense to me, I couldn’t read any of it, and when I asked a question about it got blasted, and good.

My DID is about survival, not entertainment. I can’t switch at will, my littles have no writing skills, I’m no Sybil by any stretch of the imagination. DID–the real thing–is probably much more mundane than those without it would suspect.

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ December 18, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Hi Beauty – welcome!

Thanks for your support – but courageous? Sometimes I think completely oblivious to who I will piss off! This post has generated more controversy than anything else I have written. There are a couple forums out there debating it from what I can see on my incoming links. The same forum keeps hitting this post over and over. Wow!

I am not surprised at the forum blasting – I’ve heard several people say that. I think that specific forums are great for specific people – not all are good for all. If the baby talk forums are supportive for those folks, well, whatever.

But yes, the word “entertainment” sums it up. I didn’t think of that word. But very good.

Mundane…mostly. For the cooperative ones. My DID has made me a more accomplished person overall, and I told my husband the other day, sometimes I LOVE having this diagnosis!

But of course, the amnesia part kinda sucks. ;-P

Camigwen

mo wrote @ December 18, 2008 at 8:09 pm

I will tell you guys, the baby talk stuff, freaks me out and for someone who is desperately trying to rationalise things right now, sends me asking my doc for a brain mri..I mean I must have a brain tumour vs DID. But through here Emily thank you, I found and learned so much that does not make it so scary and worried about if Im going to start talking like that. For me right now I want proof, hard cold science, not soft science which lets face it even the good research is still consider soft science .
I can see the funny side (I think), I would rather have a brain tumour than be DID !!!!. On one hand I know and it makes sense for me but then I dont know why I cant accept it, fear probably, fear of the unknown I guess. Anyway sorry for rambling, its just here I find everything so normal 🙂

The Zoo wrote @ February 6, 2009 at 2:19 am

Five is a four year old that usually come out when he wants to consol someone or wants to compare wounds. Normally, he uses a very calm voice and not some wubby-dubby Shirley Temple voice. He is still very concerned with hiding even when he feels safe enough to talk, which is very rare.

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ March 11, 2009 at 3:47 pm

I have a similar self…very honest and wanting to help but also wary of being hurt. She has been out for more than a short while only with my mother and a very close friend – at a point when I was not fully aware of the diagnosis! I am no therapist or expert, but Five sounds like a part of you who you should protect, nurture and treasure.

Elysium3006 wrote @ March 23, 2009 at 3:29 pm

Okay, I just found this post this morning!! I had asked you a question regarding “little-speak” last night prior to finding it.

I know everyone’s experiences and systems are “wired” differently to a certain point so therefor I don’t mean to accuse anyone specifically of faking.

It just seems to me that certain posts that I have recently seen in little-speak seem well…a little less authentic and make me scratch my head a little. NOT meaning to discount anyone’s experiences.

A lot of times I can tell I’ve switched, but it usually takes a few minutes for me to become aware of my behavior and perceptual changes when they take place. Usually, my little ones don’t come out in public unless they feel safe with the people I’m with, and that is rare that they feel safe being out. More often than not, a little will come out when I am alone at home, and all I will want to do is watch cartoons, color, and jump around and just be a kid.

I too have other parts that baby-sit my littles. There are four in general that rise to that occasion…some more than others. It seems to me, so far, in my experiences that there is always one of our baby-sitters present whenever a little is up front. My operator makes sure there’s always someone else present to be responsible to help maintain the little ones safety and prevent us from bein “found out” by others.

Thanks for this post. It’s a good one.

Tam

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ March 25, 2009 at 10:52 pm

Thank you – glad it is good for info, even though it generated a lot of controversy. That one was a tough one to do.

Dark-Star wrote @ May 27, 2009 at 10:35 pm

Thanks for this post! I just found your blog and I agree 100%. My young parts can barely understand things, let alone figure out how to turn on a computer and type on some random website. Nor can they come out on command and “play” on the internet.
This “littles-speak and behavior” is ridiculous and most likely not associated with true DID.

It bothers me a great deal that (psychology) websites encourage this. DID is NOT fun and honestly, I would not wish it on my worst enemy. Life is hard with DID.

Although a result of my childhood, I was/am not proud to be DID, almost more ashamed.
I don’t switch on command and I still have very little communication between parts. But I am not Sybil or Tara ~ most true DID are not that dramatic. My child parts are more about trauma, sadness, and confusion, than “playing on the internet.”

These websites/forums that allow “littles to post” are filled with people who self-diagnosis and honestly give DID a bad rap.
DID is already confusing enough to society, but when people see this “little-speak and behavior” it just makes the understanding about DID more confusing and make people challenge its existence more.

Anyway…like your blog.

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ July 26, 2009 at 8:20 pm

Hi Dark Star

Sorry for such a late response. Thanks for sharing your feelings. So many of us feel the same way … but like anything, those of us with DID have such widely varying experiences that I think we have to leave room for a range of survival responses to trauma.

I did find a forum once that appealed to a child inside me, but parts of me are so willing to trust – overly willing in an attempt for acceptance, that I have had to pull back from that. It was a bit of stress for a bit, but I found it better to avoid the whole forum thing. Partly because I don’t naive parts of me to be hurt, and partly because I have no idea who is really there. I explored a bit and found some good people and posts, but like you suggested, self-diagnosed people who seemed to be in it for the attention.

I am surprised that you say psych websites encourage this. Scary. Can you reply with some of these references? I am not asking to challenge you, but because I want to read more about it and why they think it is a good thing to do. It concerns me, perhaps because in a way, I see myself as a parent to parts of myself, protecting.

I have said before – my feelings on this topic are so mixed. So I think my disclaimer sometimes if there for me too!

I share and recognize your path of healing. I’ve always wanted insight into how the healing will go. Where you might be now, I was (and in a way still am), but am more able to hear inside and recognize that the turmoil is really just me with many different voices inside.

Thanks for your feedback on my blog. I appreciate you coming around – please do more.

My best,
Cami/Emily, and those who would like to explore forums but who are not allowed to. 🙂

Paul wrote @ July 23, 2009 at 10:07 am

Dear Emily,

I realize this is nearly a year old, but I feel compelled to comment on this. I saw this as one your top posts.

I think you made some really relevant points. I have shared many of them over the years. But I’ve mellowed recently. I don’t believe there are nearly as many “fakers” as you believe.

I think it was “kind” and “gentle” of you to put in so many disclaimers and to say that this was your perspective.

The problem with DID is that because of the nature of what we deal with, we are constantly battling issues of “are we hopeless attention seekers?” or “are we seeking healthy attention?” And, “are we liars?” or “are we telling the truth?” This is always at the heart of everything, so this is why the whole area is so delicate.

So, yes, I have mellowed. I do have personal issues with “little’s speak”, but I also know that this is a reality for us. I think I’ve been able to contain it to areas that are more appropriate (like the therapy office). But I cannot expect everyone will have the ability to do this. DID can be wildly chaotic. There was a time, maybe 15 years ago, when I didn’t have this level of control. Hospitals were a different place, and that’s a whole other story. And I’m still not sure if it’s that the hospitals have changed or that only I’ve changed.

I did get a great chuckle out of many of the things you wrote. I especially liked it when you asked if child alters share the same “little’s speak” dictionary and grammar.

I do think that your ability to mostly all sign off as Emily is healthy for you. But it may not be within the capabilities of others. I share that ability with you.

I do a lot of art for child alters. I share your views on this also. I feel it’s a more real communication and probably more helpful for child alters/parts than “little’s speak” online.

I appreciate your having the courage to write this. Thanks.

Paul

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ July 26, 2009 at 7:20 pm

Dear Paul

Thank you for a terrific comment – I chuckled at your chuckle at me! I believe I have written before that a wonderful side effect of DID is that we have the mental ability to “tickle” ourselves. If I didn’t directly write something funny, it makes me laugh all the much more. Smile.

I really appreciate your insight, and your open thoughts about this. Yes, this post is a year old and *I* feel a little differently about it. Healing and growing. Parts of me have been, and continue to be, very analytical and judgemental.

Yes – I have grown in the past year it seems, in the direction you are in.

I was pretty harsh against baby talkers and yet part of me inside knew I had to put the disclaimers. I don’t want to offend but I do want to be honest in spite of the controversy. And I recognize that we likely discriminate within our own community – I have with my words. But I still don’t apologize for anything in that post. (some things never change, heh heh)

In the last two years, I have struggled against denial – against what I had to become to survive. I don’t deny as much, and as a result, I can see and accept more of me. I don’t baby talk, but now I can let down my guard enough in safe environments to let those precious parts of me read favorite books (one I have had for 35 years) and hug my favorite bears. Such comfort I couldn’t allow myself even last year. Can’t at the new therapist yet, but can with myself … which is ultimately the main goal, right?

I’ve stopped signing everything in Emily’s name – something I’ve explored in another post. It has been healthy up to that point – you make a good point – but it also became kind of a wall for protection, and me writing under her name. But as I grew and didn’t need that as much, it became clear I had to write under my name but still have her author, but mostly inject into my writing. But since I communicate different ways (some art like you do), only a few parts of me use written word like this, I decided to be honest with myself and not write behind Emily when it’s really me/Camigwen driving the bus.

Thank you for the wonderful comment. Really good stuff.

Camigwen/Emily

What’s up Girl? Healed a little, eh? « Emily First Girl: ………..Camigwen …………Multiplicity wrote @ July 27, 2009 at 12:18 am

[…] Paul and Dark Star recently wrote comments in response to my baby talkers post/rant from last year. In replying to them both, I found my feelings about the topic altered … tempered. (Ref: Looking for Attention, Baby Talk and Fakers in DID) […]

Eysium wrote @ July 27, 2009 at 3:43 pm

Emily ~ CamiGwen….

I haven’t been on this site for a while.

I was diagnosed with DID in February of this year by three different specialists. I had such a difficult time believing it to be true and I tried to debunk it because I just couldn’t handle it.

It finally came to a point where there was a lot of anger and turmoil inside because my parts were not being acknowledged. I started to read a lot about DID because I wanted to learn about why it happened and how to make it go away. I did learn a lot….most importantly I learned that if you don’t acknowledge your parts or your past traumas, it will get harder and more difficult to cope with DID.

Since my diagnosis, I have been around to various different sites and mental health forums. I really only participate in one at this time because I have found that I didn’t like the environments in most of the others.

I need to say that I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and no one has to change the way they think just because of something that I say….

This being said….the people who are so critical of others with DID and the topic of “Little Speak” really gets under my skin now!!

I know that I have little parts….theres an 8 yr old, a 9 yr old, a 12 yr old, a 15 yr old, and a 19 yr old, that all at one time or another like to post on this site. I have a 3 yr old and 5 yr old who do not post. I am co-conscious with most of my parts….but there are a few that we don’t have much communication with. I can not switch on command, but I do switch rather quickly sometimes….especially if someone else has something to say. My younger parts HAVE participated in “Little Speak”. Not to the extreme that some other peoples Littles do, but yes…we do type differently online. I can not speak for everyone who claims to have DID, but it makes me angry that people call me a faker because my typing changes. I am NOT a faker!!

It is a known and documented fact that a persons voice and handwriting can and does change when they switch between on state and another. Why is it so hard to believe that an alter’s way of typing for communication can’t change as well.

When my Littles want to say something…I let them say something. I have learned to value what they have to say. It may not make sense….and it may scare me….but it still comes from within me, just with a different format. It is hard to show someone that you feel small and vulnerable online. When my littles type differently, it is there way of communicating who is out. Not their way of faking being someone with DID. I see this a lot with others I have gotten to know online as well. We don’t always remember when we post or what we post about….but when littles need to communicate…they communicate. Kind of like when a person has a job interview. If you want to impress the Boss and communicate that you are the one for the job, dress well for the interview. If you want to tell the boss you don’t give a shit….go in jeans and a t-shirt.

I really feel sad for people who try and contain their littles voices. The littles are just as important as the Bigs and to invalidate them by saying that they are fake is not only re-traumatizing, but it just makes it harder to heal. I don’t want everyone knowing I have DID because my parts just want to be left alone and don’t like to come out much. But in finding my online community, I have found a place where they can be more comfortable reaching out their hands and learning to trust….even if it is an isolated type of trust.

I will not go so far as to say that there aren’t ANY fakers of DID…because I am pretty sure I know of a few. But it really hurts to know that I am shunned by others within the DID community because of they way my different parts cope.

“Little speak” is just one more way for some of us to say….”hey, we feel small, we feel vulnerable….be gentle with us.”

And to the person who has made statements that their 8 yr old alter doesn’t even know how to turn on the computer……..Okay, I guess, but I know for me, I can have one person driving the bus, a passenger, and a back seat driver at times. Like after a really difficult session in therapy. One of my littles may be out emotionally, but there is an adult or caretaker handy to do the big stuff like driving home.

Anyway…just wanted to share things from a different perspective. I’m sorry if I offend anyone. I just think it’s sad that some people with DID can be so discriminatory within the community when we know that DID affects everyone differently.

Just my two cents.

Hope you are well…..

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ July 27, 2009 at 4:52 pm

Hi Eysium

Thank you for writing some great stuff from the heart. I am happy that you have the strength to do that, knowing that there are people who might think you are faking. I feel bad if you felt I was attacking you personally. I am sorry for that. I am learning, and sometimes a well-written and obviously sincere post shakes your beliefs. My post from yesterday hints at my mellowing on this topic.

Your first several paragraphs – yup – I’ve written the same thing, and those words are shared by so many of us. That initial path from denial to first glimmer of possibility. I feel more validated every time I see someone write those words – we are all together in this.

You said a great one – probably one of the most important parts of the healing process:

“most importantly I learned that if you don’t acknowledge your parts or your past traumas, it will get harder and more difficult to cope with DID.”

Excellent!

But you also raise the dark side – that we discriminate against ourselves. Our own denial and insecurities. We accept the different handwriting, the different talents, different habits and preferences, but we deny different methods of communication on that singular level of Little Speak.

Why is this? If I ask the part of me who mostly authored that post, the feelings are mixed. Some denial, some attempts to distance us from others who might judge us as crazy. And some fear of the unknown inside. I think these feelings from the author of that post are understandable, although not totally appropriate to spew from the rooftops.

But again, we reserve the right to express resentment that there are fakers out there who cloud the waters. I just don’t go looking to separate people into two groups. In MY book that crosses the line.

You said,

“I really feel sad for people who try and contain their littles voices. The littles are just as important as the Bigs and to invalidate them by saying that they are fake is not only re-traumatizing, but it just makes it harder to heal.”

I think in many cases, people don’t even realize they are ignoring parts of themselves. Turns out I was. Maybe don’t feel sad for them for trying to contain, but for not being able to hear in the first place.

You said nothing offensive – you just shared some very personal and valuable stuff. An insightful post and a real look inside.

Thank you for the courage to do that.

Camigwen

petrogenic wrote @ October 15, 2009 at 9:25 pm

Hi, thanks so much for writing this post – its something I’ve really struggled to understand. Feel free to delete this link from the comment, but I’d be interested in your thoughts http://petrogenic.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/stealth-mode/

Thanks again!

Petr.

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ December 30, 2009 at 8:43 am

Hi Petrogenic

Interesting post and I understand. I’d like that T-shirt as well!

You said

should I be acting like a total mentalist and letting my life fall apart just so I can fit in with the psychiatric view of how I should be?

Wow – heavy concept but I get it. Those treating us can have an idea of what is happening, but since everyone is a fingerprint there is no one treatment for each of us.

Thanks for the comment
Cami

Joy wrote @ January 3, 2010 at 12:36 pm

Good post. I have been struggling with this for awhile now, especially regarding you tube. They sound sincere, but who is going to actively flaunt this, especially their littles on public video forums? Maybe I’m wrong, but then again, half the time I doubt my own diagnosis. I tend to shy away from cameras and videos. I will talk about having DID with people, but as for videos where I might switch, no way.

Emily’s Camigwen wrote @ March 21, 2010 at 5:43 pm

Thanks for the feedback – you sound just like me in your thoughts and feelings about Youtube, littles, doubting the DX, etc. You know, the DSM should change the criteria from what THEY think the main symptoms are, to what we all think about what they think!

You aren’t *wrong* – I don’t really like that word because in many situations, there is no *wrong*. Perhaps just different realities and experiences. So don’t look to doubt yourself.

I’ve just decided I don’t watch those videos and I don’t go to forums, etc., where I would feel uncomfortable. Now, that may be a little different from one day to the next, but overall I think that just protecting yourself and your reality from other people’s realities is most important.

Actually, I think you just gave me an idea for a post …

Putting Your Doubts on the Other Side of the Street « Emily First Girl: ………..Camigwen …………Multiplicity wrote @ March 21, 2010 at 6:35 pm

[…] wrote a comment on the Baby Talkers post that got me thinking about something I learned in Alanon. She wrote: I have been struggling with […]

Emily First Girl: ………..Camigwen …………Multiplicity